3. Aircraft Industry. [Enter C., J.A.
P.T. Demonstrated ‘variable geometry” with aid of a model.
Reduction of design staffs – inevitable, as is redn in size of industry.
But retreat must not become a rout. Want therefore in to-day’s debate to announce this design project study - £1/2m over 18 months.
W’in publd estimates. Key advance in all aviation, civil & industry.
H.B. More than £1/2m is at stake…
Is the political necessity over-riding?
P.T. I am under heavy attack about the industry.
No commitment to produce an aircraft.
P.M. Cd you not be vague?
P.T. B.A.C. are out of design work because of my cancellations.
D.S. Bound to be central to any advance in aircraft design.
Hail. Project study does not commit.
H.B. I agree with that. But if announced public will assume we are going to build the aircraft.
P.M. Cd Ty. fears be met if P.T. explained in his speech what project study does involve and what it doesn’t.
P.T. Willing to do this.
[Exit C., J.A., Dundee
4. Incomes Policy.
S.Ll. Diffy. way in which Press represent settlements in private industry.
I.C.I. and Massey Ferguson awards are actually not so bad as they were represented to be.
M. Wages Council. 21/2-9% awards are being made.
Public haven’t understood policy – or the need for it.
Hail. We must put our view across. And must seize topical instances.
R.M. We shall get into trouble if we start criticising individual firms.
P.M. People do know: but some don’t agree that it’s necessary and more don’t like it.
Ch.H. Common re-action to unpopular measures tht. ‘you haven’t explained it properly’.
But more Ministers cd. expound – instead of leaving it all to Ty. Ministers. Need for repetition, in simple terms.
I.M. Many feel that others are exempt – the chorus & the heavy-pressure T.U.’s. cf. Orpington.
Ministers are speaking – but aren’t reported. Anyhow, it’s not news.
Policy is accepted but wildly unpopular.
D.E. New point: change in method of settling wage claims.
Departure from comparability.
P.M. Seize occasions (e.g. Ritchie) to correct.
Don’t make attacks on particular firms.
Use arguments re Bank rate etc., to slow tht. policy is
C.C. 24 (62) 29th March, 1962
1. Security in Public Service. [Enter M.R., Att.G.
P.M. In view of Pincher’s article we now propose to include a version of Ch.7.
I.M. Business for next week.
S.Ll. Can H.B. wind up Budget debate? Traditional tht. Ch/Ex. shd. do so.
Need I be bound by this?
R.A.B. S.Ll. can decide in his discretion.
P.M. Let Ty. Ministers consider. But my instinct is for S.Ll. not to seem to be backing out.
3. The Budget.
S.Ll. Explained our proposal to be included.
No note taken.
4. Incomes Policy: Wages Council Awards.
J.H. Explained his position. Tabled draft letter.
H.B. Ministers must be seen to show disapproval by referring back – even if they are re-submitted w’out alteration. I put this at E.P.C. J.H. suggd stronger statement: this is not stronger.
I.M. Words quoted, which I need in debate, were considered statement of Govt. policy. Line now taken by H.B. is not consistent with what I said.
Tho’ we cd. strengthen the draft answer to come nearer to H.B.’s suggn.
M. Support I.M.’s view.
Hail. Univ. teachers 3%: nurses 21/2% - in order to help M/L. to hold the private sector. But his schedule is wholly in excess of our norm.
This is indefensible.
S.Ll. V. small propn of whole field is under our control. We must therefore proceed by example (where we do control) or precept (where we don’t). J.H.’s line is not sufficient precept.
J.H. Ready to strengthen what I say to Wages Councils – but don’t want to take action wh. can’t be effective.
P.T. We are asked either to enforce across the board or to drop it.
Our posn must be weakened if M/L. accepts these awards w’out at least askg. for re-considn. Ask them for statement showg. how they reconcile these awards with Govt. policy they were asked to consider.
I.M. x| My statement said: after 1/4. Those in already cd. be referred back
| consistently with that.
C.S. Our only hope is to go on saying tht. wherever we can act to secure compliance with our norm. policy, we will do so.
Att.G. Cd you not also threaten to take power to amend awards inconsistent with Govt. policy.
J.H. We may come to that. But remember these are all low-paid workers.
This is a political diffy.
General support for line at x/.
P.M. Wd prefer to avoid statement in H/C.
Why shdn’t. M/L. write to Councils, referring to his earlier request, pointing out danger to these workers if general policy fails, asking them to think again. Confine this to Councils wh. have made awards, but send copy to those now considering new cases.
H. But face it, they won’t respond, and then we must legislate & go much further or see our policy collapse.
P.M.G. Referring back is not inconsistent with I.M.’s statement. That referred to delaying operation of an award.
H. We shall be criticised. But bearable if we cd. get the assurance they won’t be used in Angola. We ought to be able to get that.
J.A. They wdn’t be much use in Angola.
M. But they aren’t useful in N.A.T.O.
All Dpts. favour save C.R.O., Admy & B/T. (unless useful to N.A.T.O.).
D.S. If aircraft were moved to Angola, no-one wd. think assurance was worth anything.
J.A. We use Azores & Cape Verdi for non-N.A.T.O. purposes – tho’ pretending the contrary.
M. Cd F.O. discover extent of assurances we can get.
F.E. Worth taking a risk on this.
P.M. Not in Africa or, failing that, not in Africa save v. external
C.C. 25 (62) 30th March, 1962
1. Common Market: Commonwealth Consultation. [Enter M.R.
P.M. Am informing C.P.M. tht. we want a mtg. Picture will have emerged by end July. C.P.M. to start 10/9.
We shall have a bad summer. Must consider later how to get some holiday early in August.
2. West Irain.
H. Informal contacts betwn. D. & Indonesians – were going well: basis D. adminn wd. phase out as I. phased in. But Sokarno broke off talks because D. didn’t accept immediate recognition. He then sent invaders to off-shore islands. D. are sending re-inforcemts. to throw them out: & we shall be asked for re-fuelling facilities – and later, perhaps, logistic support more generally.
U.S. may feel tht., if serious fighting developed, they have to give such support.
Hail. U.S. cd, do it at sea: much easier, politically.
H. Can prob. fend this off pro-tem. Tell Amb. to try U.S. – easier.
P.M. Cd be v. awkward situation for us.
H. Harriman has persuaded Thais to support U.S. view – neutral Laos under nald govt. under Phonma. They are advising Phonmi accordingly.
But latter holds out still. And we are stuck. King has proved broken reed in this.
Communists think Phonmi will collapse in 2 months if U.S. help w’drawn.
R. Amb. seems to be co-operative: pressures on Phonmi. But dangerous to w’draw support in case Communists shd. get upper hand: which they cd. do if R. eluated. But seems no other way of bringing him to heel.
P.M. This is policy we persuaded U.S. to follow. But, if it lets Communists in, great blow to U.K. – and to the West generally.
H. Neutral Govt. under Phonma is best solution – with armies disbanded and internatl supervision. But Phonmi can’t be bought.
H. T/A. talks continuing, but not going well. T. will wait. But U.N. man (Gardiner) is losing patience, and suggests best way is to clear up Katanga by force – using Army of Central Govt. This seems to conflict with U. Thants policy on use of force. We must counsel patience.
H. U.S. had 40 hrs. of talk at all levels – we are all reading the records now!
Calm & objective discussion of the problem – after initial propaganda.
E. Germans have put up some arbitration proposal for air corridors – a 4 Power court to settle dispute. This suits them [Exit Ch.H.
because implies recognition. U.S. are considering wtr. they can “distort” it.
6. Nuclear Tests.
H. U.S. have made up mind to test. Had hoped they wd. separate atmosph. from underground; for former can be detected – and inspected by air samples collected by neutral aircraft. But now clear Mr.K. wd. not accept this – i.e. ban on tests in atmosphere.
U.S. Govt. much concerned at Congress attitude.
One other plan we cd. put to U.S. “International minus one” posts round Soviet Union vice internatl posts w’in S. Union. Wd mean more inspn teams going in to check doubtful incidents, wh. R. are certain to reject. Just worth trying to get Mr.K. to offer this.
I.M. Public opinion accepts tht. we have done all we can: blame lies with R.: expect U.S. to make the test series. V. steady.
P.M. i) Wd still like to avoid tests.
Want to get best public position, if tests are inevitable.
Feeling (H.G.) tht. we ought to be talking to K.? [Exit K.
Tho’ I wd. prefer to reserve that for Berlin.
I.M. Public like Summits, but want them to be meaningful.
H. U.S. want Summit on Berlin, if there is any hope of modus vivendi. There is a chance of getting some agreement on disarmament which cd. be submitted for endorsement by Summit.
In that context it wd. have to be in May.
R.M. Two points outstandg. i) land: White Highlands
ii) control of police.
May get agreement on these.
Kenyatta may decline to sign because no date for independence.
He may also brk. on exclusion of Odinja.
Wd prefer to see a break on either of latter than on former.
C.C. 26 (62) 5th April, 1962
1. Parliament. [Enter Mr.R.
I.M. Business. Budget next week throughout.
Monday following: Supply. Opposition may want Rhodesia. Will discuss with them.
2. Foreign Affairs.
H. a) Berlin. No R. interference or flights in air corridors, since Friday.
H.W. Norstadt thinks R. are trying to get out of this.
b) Congo. A & T. are talking: no progress.
c) Indonesia. Mr K. has pressed Sukarno to resume talks. He seemed ready to do so, on phased in & out plan in concert with U.N. But Lunz has re-acted against resumption: & is cross with U.S. Local pressures in Holland wd. be useful if plan were leaked, but we daren’t do that.
R.A.B. Memo. based on discussions with Govrs. & H. Commr., who all agreed.
Want soundings now – otherwise we can’t hold Banda from coming here. Must deal with N. ques.: pity to handle it alone – esp. while Fedn is having its election. Hence composite approach.
Start talks with Banda in confidence & tell Fed. Govt. we’re doing so.
Banda won’t have existg Fedn but is not adamant v. some other form of assocn. If we accept his statement tht. he is now willing to remain in present Fedn, we may get constructive help from him
Welensky won’t be constructive, but might acquiesce in initiative by us. Hence plan for small constitutional mission – not as successor to Monckton or to be repve: but to do the work. Annex shows what is needed. (i) wd. be done by Dep. Chairman. (ii) is bait for S. Rhodesia & Fedn. 4 men: to help our chaps on the spot & ourselves. (iv) Cd. be left over pro-tem.
D.S. Wd report be published?
D.S. If it were published, factories wd. take as minimum parts which suited them.
Does (iii) not simply that we have decided already to break up Fedn?
R.A.B. Merge (iii) into (ii) – to examine, with the Govts. concerned including the Federal Govt.
There wd. have to be some statement.
K. Para 3 of memo. “to get things moving”. Avoid implying a re-hash of Monckton. Stress that it’s a working body. Special advisers vice formal commission.
E.H. Factual material cd. usefully be published.
R.A.B. For consideration.
H Support idea of advisers.
Nyasaland: tell Banda we won’t meet his deficit if he abandons advantages of Federation.
Worried about 2(c): does it involve referendum?
R.A.B. Tied by preamble of Fed. Constitution.
N. Rhodesia delay – gives us chance to make progress with different form of association. Between now & October.
D.E. Success depends on the peoples’ understanding economic facts.
Commn shd. include someone like Tuke, who wd. carry more influence with employers than an economist.
Hail. T. of r. speak wholly of Govts. Advisers shd. not be so restricted.
R.A.B. Accept that point.
P.M. Summing up. i) Avoid impression of another R. Commn.
A working body – instrument for R.A.B. to help him.
No single formal Report: stream of advice
Factual material cd. be made public at will.
R.A.B. Alport has now advised me to put more stress on economic aspects.
P.T. Cd the Commrs. be attached to R.A.B.’s staff – to keep final decision in our hands. Special advisers.
P.M. We must avoid position that Parlt. has a right to see & discuss what they say.
S.Ll. Do we need more staff or strength on the economic side?
Either in W’hall or on Commrs. – or both.
R.A.B. Stress penultimate sentence of memo.
Also para 7. Govr. believe Banda can be persuaded to accept this.
M. Frederick Seaborg (?) – Barclays: is v. knowledgeable on Fedn.
Agreed: On amended basis – Govr. to open proposals with
with Banda & H. Commr. with Welensky.
R.M. Parties agree to framework for constitution.
On formn of Coalition – K.A.D.U. agreeable. K.A.N.U. have asked for i) Kenyatta is to be head of Govt. ii) date of independence.
I have told them I can agree to neither; but have given them formula on (ii) which they may accept.
If there is a break now, it will be responsibility of K.A.N.U.
Economic missions project have bn. accepted.
R.M. Parties can’t agree: no constitutional advance possible. Told Delegations to go home.
6. National Theatre.
H.B. Going well. Next step will be to publish (Joint Council) so that we can submit it formally to Art Council. They are our official advisers. We can’t be committed until we have their advice.
P.T. Why another opera house?
H.B. Because Sadlers’ Wells isn’t suitable for opera.
Stratford cdn’t have bn kept in: jealousies too great.
P.M. Bring it out before Easter.
7. Nuclear Tests.
P.M. Clear from Geneva that R. are not prepd to accept any checks in their territory.
Much talk on wtr. underground tests cd. be detected from outside R.
B. scientists are more hopeful on this than U.S., & both agree tht. such a system wd. not be wholly reliable at present. But not the immediate problem for, even with this system, you wd. need some means of investigating the doubtful events: and R. will have none of that. Argument on means of establishing prima facie case is therefore irrelevant at present.
U.S. have now given preliminary notices to mariners & tests will start soon after Easter.
Must therefore have joint appeal to K. or joint statement.
Mr.K. has no objn to my making independent appeal. W’ton tel. message of ¾. Or he wd. agree to a joint statement.
Shall I concentrate on joint statement e.g. Thursday – or shd. I make, in advance (tomorrow) an independent approach (by letter) to K.? If K.’s reply were negative, we cd. still have joint statement. Read draft of such a letter. Recognise reply wd. be negative (some loss of prestige): might be thought we were not fully in line with Mr.K. tho’ this presumption cd. be dispelled: might make it more difficult to get Summit on even more crucial matter of Berlin. Br. opinion – two views: some wd. be glad we had done everything: others that it’s pointless.
D.S. Favour a letter. But wd. explain more fully what we have proposed, can’t understand why it isn’t acceptable. Rejection wdn’t damage our prestige. Mr.K. seems to want it.
H. There must be joint statement next week. That wd. make D.S. points in full.
If P.M. writes, K. may send reply embarrassing to U.S. – who are now determined to test. He may say: I offered Summit mtg. on this.
H.W. U.S. scientists are divided. Mr.K. mght. be in diffy if K. accepted internatl detection. Even so, favour letter.
I.M. Favour letter – to show we have done all we can.
S.Ll. x| Shd you put the dangers to Mr.K..
Hail. Favour appeal – but it isn’t convincing if it’s all about underground tests when only practical issue now is tests in atmosphere.
P.M. Ready to put these Mr.K. viz. offer of Summit or acceptance of principle when we mght. be divided on methods & numbers.
K. Favour letter.
P.T. So do I.
C.S. For home opinion, yes. But support S.Ll.’s point because U.S./U.K. relations.
J.H. Favour letter – but not in terms of an appeal.
D.E. Only reason why K. shd. respond to desire to split us from Americans.
E.H. R. determined to test. U.S. are right to test now.
Offer to suspend atm. tests w’out inspn was a mistake.
Our relns with U.S. & with other W. Powers. Latter will be taken as dividing ourselves fr. U.S. – with no prospect of success.
Will weaken our posn.
I wd. prefer to rely on joint statement.
R.A.B. Impressed by E.H.’s points.
H. All internatl arguments are v. letter. No point in it unless needed for U.K. opinion.
R.M. Not needed for U.K. opinion.
H.B. We shd. not do this solely for sake of U.K. opinion.
Letter shd. make it plain tht. rejection wd. not be of U.K. alone but of all countries of the world.
P.M. Put it to Mr.K. – does he still think it wd. be worth doing.
C.C. 27 (62) 7th April, 1962
1. Nuclear Tests.
P.M. On Mon. p.m. joint statement will be handed over to Soviet Govt.
On Tues a.m. a lr. from me will be handed to Mr Krushchev..
To some extent this gives best of both worlds.
This has all been agreed with U.S. Govt.
2. The Budget.
No note taken.
C.C. 28 (62) 17th April, 1962
1. Foreign Affairs. [Enter M.R.
E.H. U.S. draft treaty now tabled. Neutrals plan for internatl cttee of scientists to supervise verification. Doesn’t meet U.S./U.K. view.
D.S. Useful if R. turn it down. Better to avoid saying it doesn’t meet us.
H.W. Not so easy. R. cd. expose technical differences between us & Americans.
E.H. Rusk saw Amb. y’day in W’ton. Cdn’t present any document because of diffies with Fr. & G. Now intended to discuss at Athens.
E.H. U.S. Amb. has put a plan to T. & A. – compromises. They will examine it.
2. E.E.C. Meeting at W.E.U.
E.H. My statement well received by Six. They are now considering how we cd. be associated with their discussion of the political problem.
Hail. The leaks are awkward. Cd we avoid this by disclosing text in advance?
E.H. V. awkward. This is first leak from W.E.U.
Time-table for negotiations. Ministers likely to come to grips by end/May.
Hope we can finish by end/July – or early August.
D.E. Anti-C.M. Tories are getting ahead. Shd Ministers speak more strongly on basis tht. we must go in if we can get the terms?
E.H. Effect on negotiations: varies: but steady flow of strong speeches wd. help me now.
H.B. Cd we have confidential guidance on new points to make.
J.M. Esp. on Fouchet.
E.H. Can give factual informn on Fouchet. We have refrained from comment.
But the broad points made in my speech cd. be used by Ministers.
I.M. Business for week following end of Recess.
4. Federation of Rhodesia.
R.A.B. No statement needed before Easter. Can wait until debate 8/5.
I will then go there for 2 wks: can’t deal with R.W. by telegram.
Composite approach was at first well received by R.W. – and I believe he will accept it in due course. But his Ministers won’t agree because don’t want any statement by me during Fed. election: not unreasonable & I accept that posn.
Fed. Govt. are worried about Nyasaland. But we can’t keep it in existg. Fedn by force. Propose therefore to have enquiry: viability of Territory & future form of association with the other territories.
Banda has accepted that.
Trying to persuade R.W. tht. we must have parallel enquiry in N. & S. Rhodesia.
R.M. Satisfactory tht. Banda has accepted this & refrained from coming to Ldn.
R.A.B. Have reported accordingly to P.M., who is satisfied.
[Enter C., J.P., J.A., E.P.
5. Incomes Policy: Doctors & Dentists in Forces.
H.W. Have seen Secy. B.M.A. Agreed formula on lead. Promised not to use it later to secure increases for N.H.S. doctors.
E.P. Presentation – to avoid repercussions on N.H.S. salaries.
Must not be percentage – either of salary or of lead.
Wish to keep in touch with Service Dpts. on numbers.
H.B. More work has bn. done. This plan is acceptable to me.
M/D. has shown there is rather more than £1/2m. lift from Grigg & I am ready to accept £575.000.
Serious emergency threatens which we must meet.
S.Ll. Present as use of money accrued under Grigg formula.
Present also a unique – inapplicable, e.g. to Prison doctors.
J.H. Wd have preferred to see this presented as bounty.
H.W. Can’t do that. But can say extra money will be paid as a lead over N.H.S. salaries as recommended by B.M.A.
I.M. Repercussion on nurses. Also: must be a precedent.
H.W. Criticism of Forces pay award was tht. it was mean. Show that people do regard service pay as different.
Not sure tht. even this is enough to get recruits needed.
S.Ll. Present as new situation resulting from end/N.Service.
M. Support J.H. Cd it not be called a supplement?
H.W. Cd do that.
Ch.H. Basic difficulty: work in R.A.M.C. is mainly administrative and non-clinical. That is real reason – not the money.
J.P. We are re-organising also – areas vice units: has administrative work.
R.A.B. Use of N.H.S.?
J.P. Studying this: but inconsistent with giving R.A.M.C. a more interesting job.
R.A.B. This will be noticed & percentages will be worked out. But stress Grigg money: use “supplement”: emphasise end of N.S.
[Exit Service Ministers & E.P.